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#93562: "UNDO Button!"
rejected: Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten
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Once the live round starts, each player need to be able to Undo their last move (whether a movement, pick up, or dropoff). It's too easy to move from an airport before picking up a passenger and it totally ruins the round (and probably game). Try out some options. I like how they do it in the Ark Nova implementation.
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Jul 16 th 2023 5:56 • NextFarley • Dette forslaget har ikke blitt analysert av utviklerne ennå:
- none -
Jul 16 th 2023 6:04 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I cannot allow undo because it will affect everyone's turn. You may have done something that affected what other players did or how other players moved. Example: Maybe you didn't pick up a passenger before leaving ORD, so another player started heading towards ORD...
You can always undo drop off/pick up by just clicking the passenger again. (The only issue here is about temporary seat.)
You can always undo drop off/pick up by just clicking the passenger again. (The only issue here is about temporary seat.)
Jul 18 th 2023 1:40 • tommymillerjr • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I also realized I forgot to pickup the passenger before I moved and I wish there was a way to go back.
Jul 18 th 2023 1:41 • tommymillerjr • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
Maybe add a confirm button before moving?
Jul 18 th 2023 3:00 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I already provide undo capability in the places where it makes sense -- during the initial setup of your plane, during purchasing in the maintenance phase, during the VIP decision in the maintenance phase (for VIP Variant), and during the flight phase when you end your turn early and want to get back in the round. The only logical place that is missing undo relates to using the Temporary Seat. In a future version, I could envision supporting some type of automatic undo to re-grant the Temporary Seat in the scenario where you use it to board a passenger, then deplane that passenger and board another passenger at the same airport instead (and you haven't moved yet).
However, I have no intention of providing undo/confirm capability for actions during the flight phase. My position is very unlikely to change on this point for several reasons:
- Undo is ILLEGAL. The flight phase is supposed to be on a short timer. Normally, everyone must take all their actions within 30 seconds. (Turn-based and untimed games are the exception, not the norm.) The crux of this game is tactical decision-making as a team -- working together as best as you can under the time pressure and with imperfect information. You can't setup a perfect strategy beforehand because you don't know where the new passengers want to go. In the same vein, other players should be responding to your actions. If I let you undo some action, then it probably changes what others would have done on their turn (even if you didn't directly interact with them). So, the undos could cascade until we're at the point of restarting the entire flight phase. No. That is completely against the sprit and the rules of the game. You don't get a do-over. On purpose, you didn't know everything when the flight phase began. I can't let you start again now that you have complete information.
- Undo and confirm are UNFAIR. Undo puts a large cognitive burden on other players ("wait, would it be better for me to change my turn now that Susan changed her turn?") while confirm puts a similar burden on yourself ("wait, is this really the best move?"). You still only have 30 seconds to take all your actions. You don't have time to perform this kind of extra mental calculus.
- Confirm is INEFFECTIVE. Completely ignoring the time pressure aspect, if you're required to confirm each action, then it will just become routine. It's just another click that you'll make instinctively or automatically without thinking. This is the exact same problem as just clicking the "3" space to move your plane without thinking. Adding more idle clicks won't magically make you think more.
- Undo is COMPLCIATED. It would require a major redesign of the game's database. I store only the current state of the board (e.g., this plane is here and this passenger is there), not a complete history of what actions you took on previous turns.
However, I have no intention of providing undo/confirm capability for actions during the flight phase. My position is very unlikely to change on this point for several reasons:
- Undo is ILLEGAL. The flight phase is supposed to be on a short timer. Normally, everyone must take all their actions within 30 seconds. (Turn-based and untimed games are the exception, not the norm.) The crux of this game is tactical decision-making as a team -- working together as best as you can under the time pressure and with imperfect information. You can't setup a perfect strategy beforehand because you don't know where the new passengers want to go. In the same vein, other players should be responding to your actions. If I let you undo some action, then it probably changes what others would have done on their turn (even if you didn't directly interact with them). So, the undos could cascade until we're at the point of restarting the entire flight phase. No. That is completely against the sprit and the rules of the game. You don't get a do-over. On purpose, you didn't know everything when the flight phase began. I can't let you start again now that you have complete information.
- Undo and confirm are UNFAIR. Undo puts a large cognitive burden on other players ("wait, would it be better for me to change my turn now that Susan changed her turn?") while confirm puts a similar burden on yourself ("wait, is this really the best move?"). You still only have 30 seconds to take all your actions. You don't have time to perform this kind of extra mental calculus.
- Confirm is INEFFECTIVE. Completely ignoring the time pressure aspect, if you're required to confirm each action, then it will just become routine. It's just another click that you'll make instinctively or automatically without thinking. This is the exact same problem as just clicking the "3" space to move your plane without thinking. Adding more idle clicks won't magically make you think more.
- Undo is COMPLCIATED. It would require a major redesign of the game's database. I store only the current state of the board (e.g., this plane is here and this passenger is there), not a complete history of what actions you took on previous turns.
Jul 22 nd 2023 1:10 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
As a compromise, I'll add limited confirmation dialogs for these two cases of obvious mistakes:
* It's definitely a mistake if your plane attempts to leave an airport without delivering all passengers. You never have a reason to withhold delivery, so a confirmation dialog makes sense. The player should never "Confirm" this dialog.
Screenshot: i.ibb.co/93cjfMY/image.png
* During the first round of the game only, it's probably a mistake if your empty plane attempts to leave an airport with passengers. E.g., on the first turn I've frequently seen players leave their first passenger behind. Since leaving passengers behind can make logical sense (especially later in the game), I don't want to introduce a confirmation dialog every time this happens.
Screenshot: i.ibb.co/ng936Ty/image.png
* It's definitely a mistake if your plane attempts to leave an airport without delivering all passengers. You never have a reason to withhold delivery, so a confirmation dialog makes sense. The player should never "Confirm" this dialog.
Screenshot: i.ibb.co/93cjfMY/image.png
* During the first round of the game only, it's probably a mistake if your empty plane attempts to leave an airport with passengers. E.g., on the first turn I've frequently seen players leave their first passenger behind. Since leaving passengers behind can make logical sense (especially later in the game), I don't want to introduce a confirmation dialog every time this happens.
Screenshot: i.ibb.co/ng936Ty/image.png
Jul 22 nd 2023 21:53 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
Version 230722-2151: Added the above confirmation dialogs
Jul 25 th 2023 23:25 • Callomac • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
Without an undo button we won't be playing this again. We played turn-based (async) and had multiple turns where we failed to pick up a passenger, picked up the wrong passenger, or failed to drop off a passenger before moving. This effectively wasted a couple moves each time and are mistakes that wouldn't happen in a live tabletop game. It was frustrating enough that it's not worth playing again without an undo.
Nov 17 th 2023 17:23 • ufm • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
You shouldn't expect async games to be the same as live games after all...
Nov 18 th 2023 23:45 • starnics • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
Turn 137
Nov 18 th 2023 23:47 • starnics • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
An undo mode for this game played with premates (probably in friend mode) would be really nice, since there are multiple scenarios where misclick situations happened and iff everybody agrees, there should be no problem to reset the flight phase to it's starting state (without resetting the timer of course, iff played with a timer).
Dec 1 st 2023 13:18 • TreeC • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
yes, Can we just add the option to reset to start of the whole round. misclick among friends are very frustrating. My wife nearly killed me for this.
Dec 1 st 2023 14:57 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
No reset will be added since that would be 100% cheating, obviously. You've already seen the new flight cards at that point. Even if everyone agrees to restart the round, it lets you take a totally different (more optimal) turn vs before because you have more information.
Jan 10 th 2024 18:14 • pcast423 • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I don't want a reset that allows for additional information etc....so not asking for a reset of the round....just the ability to undo flight moves. At that point all the destinations are known etc.
In the current game I am in I moved to ORD to pick up a passenger for LAX, accidently didn't pick up the passenger and then moved towards ATL two spaces....
So now I have to double back on my next turn basically wasting a whole turn....if I was playing on a table top with a friend I would obviously have picked the passenger up but because I forgot one click in the electronic game I'm screwed....
This is what the "undo" should be for, just the actual movement phase where there is no advantage gained. It's also very easy to misclick especially on touch screens, allowing undo of flight would remove all these issues without it being any kind of cheating IMO.
In the current game I am in I moved to ORD to pick up a passenger for LAX, accidently didn't pick up the passenger and then moved towards ATL two spaces....
So now I have to double back on my next turn basically wasting a whole turn....if I was playing on a table top with a friend I would obviously have picked the passenger up but because I forgot one click in the electronic game I'm screwed....
This is what the "undo" should be for, just the actual movement phase where there is no advantage gained. It's also very easy to misclick especially on touch screens, allowing undo of flight would remove all these issues without it being any kind of cheating IMO.
Jan 10 th 2024 18:20 • pcast423 • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I also saw your earlier response about it possibly undoing other players moves...but I would suggest that if I am undoing it's going to be right away because I know I screwed up right away. Since this is a cooperative game it's to both players advantage to have undo and normally the other player will not have moved yet unless both are playing together in real time, in which case they can discuss undoing in the chat.
I really don't see a reason to not have the ability to undo flight movement. It's something that would be done when playing on a table top without giving it a second thought.
I really don't see a reason to not have the ability to undo flight movement. It's something that would be done when playing on a table top without giving it a second thought.
Jan 10 th 2024 18:38 • pcast423 • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
at the very least, adding a reminder that you are leaving an airport without picking up a passenger would be extremely helpful. I know there is one if your plane is empty but I had a passenger in my situation and I got no warning of any kind when I flew "through" ORD without picking up the passenger that was there waiting for a ride.
in our game we had literally typed in the chat what we were going to each do and then I simply forgot one click and it then massively affected what each of us had to do on the subsequent turn.
in our game we had literally typed in the chat what we were going to each do and then I simply forgot one click and it then massively affected what each of us had to do on the subsequent turn.
Jan 10 th 2024 18:42 • pcast423 • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
I understand your hesitation as it could get annoying to have an extra confirmation pop up but at the very least it would be nice to have it as an option that can be enabled if the user wants it.
personally I've made this simple mistake enough times that I'd gladly take the extra click over the frustration of completely messing up a cooperative game from a simple mistake that directly contradicts what was already planned and intended.
personally I've made this simple mistake enough times that I'd gladly take the extra click over the frustration of completely messing up a cooperative game from a simple mistake that directly contradicts what was already planned and intended.
Feb 6 th 2024 10:13 • druzil • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
The game is hard enough as it is to win. Even one misclick can basically ruin the chance at salvaging a win. I think an undo button, at least for turn-based, non-revealing moves should be provided.
May 30 th 2024 3:04 • frabac • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
How about undoing not single moves but the whole round?
May 30 th 2024 3:10 • quietmint • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
Several problems still:
1) Everyone would need to agree to restart the round.
2) Information has already been revealed that you shouldn't know.
1) Everyone would need to agree to restart the round.
2) Information has already been revealed that you shouldn't know.
Apr 20 th 2025 18:01 • grinspy • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
We are playing the game asynchronously. The game desperately needs an undo button.
Jul 30 th 2025 17:47 • Marquis de Fuzz • Utviklerne syns ikke dette er en god ide eller at kostnaden blir for høy i forhold til nytten:
My friend and I also play async and too often find the need for undo (or confirm) during movement phase to deal with accidents (unintentional actions). We are playing on harder setting (Increased Anger; Double VIPs) so accidental movements can be the difference in win or loss.
The most common accident we see is playing from phone and accidental location click. Like one-off (too far) from city intended. In our current game, I was tracing partners move options with my finger as a pointer and got too close to the screen. I accidentally moved completely away from either of the options I was considering. This is near the end of game and there is no way to recover. boardgamearena.com/table?table=703935250 move #279
In these cases we no immediately that there was an accident. A confirm button (game option) or undo (preferred solution) would resolve our troubles. The undo could even be very limited such as to 10 seconds or until another player moves. I will filed a separate issue (boardgamearena.com/bug?id=178122) for this narrow case and very limited undo suggestion.
The most common accident we see is playing from phone and accidental location click. Like one-off (too far) from city intended. In our current game, I was tracing partners move options with my finger as a pointer and got too close to the screen. I accidentally moved completely away from either of the options I was considering. This is near the end of game and there is no way to recover. boardgamearena.com/table?table=703935250 move #279
In these cases we no immediately that there was an accident. A confirm button (game option) or undo (preferred solution) would resolve our troubles. The undo could even be very limited such as to 10 seconds or until another player moves. I will filed a separate issue (boardgamearena.com/bug?id=178122) for this narrow case and very limited undo suggestion.
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